Hi All
From the outset, I am passionate about watches and clocks. I own over 1,200 watches and about 100 clocks. I see them as beautiful little machines, not as tradable commodities. I have Quartz watches; yes I have a few Ebel watches.

OWC have been very careful in the choice of movements. Would I go mechanical or quartz? It was an easy decision - mechanical

I have much respect for the ETA2824-2 movement, so too for the AS2066, the AS1920, the Enicar AR1125 and AR165, the Zenith cal 135. There are some many good movements, but to choose a movement that is in current production, that does not cost too much and will deliver the reliability, performance and cache, is difficult.

The Japanese have excellent movements as well, and many watches use these, possibly the most popular amount the non-Japanese makers is the Miyota movements. But in the ever crowded mechanical watch market, the cache still seems to be with the Swiss.

The ETA 2824-2 is a good movement and everyone has a watch with an ETA2824-2 and if you do not you have rocks in your head – that’s what I have been told. So no one will buy a watch without a Swiss movement and definitely without an ETA2824-2. So I needed an ETA2824-2 – no question that is that.

I went to ETA and said “Please Sir may I buy some movements from you”... To which they said no. They stated this publically that they will not be supplying any more new small or medium clients and eventually will be restricting movement (mechanical) supply ONLY to members of the Swatch Group. Well the conclusions are obvious for all small and medium makers.

Well how can I sell a watch without a Swiss movement? This is commercial suicide. But I found the Grey Market. Excellent so I can get any number of ETA2824-2/36-2 at a reasonable price and that was fantastic. Oh yes I was assured, “we supply all the small and medium sized firms both inside and outside Switzerland”.

OK we were all good, I ordered my first 20 movements and all was going according to plan. Until my watchmaker said there was something wrong..... Out of my 20 movements 5 were real and 15 were fake – very nice fakes, but illegal copies with ETA stamped in all the right places.

I will stop right here and say – this is my experience. I have been banned from one Forum for pointing out the obvious and sharing my experience. This is my experience, and you can draw your own conclusions from this tale.

I found out that the Grey Market for ETA mechanical movements is basically a way for the Chinese to sell counterfeit product. Copies of ETA 2824-2 and 2836-2 are the most widespread.

When you do your sums it makes perfect sense. ETA do not make that many ETA2824-2/2836-2 movements, to satisfy all their legitimate clients, plus the small and medium sized watch companies (that all have a model with a ETA 2824-2) plus all the copy watches that claim they have a real ETA. So ipso facto I was buying counterfeit, and so were/are the majority of the small and medium sized watch companies, but I cannot really say this…

So there would apparently no way (aside from buying ETA 2824-2 at retail prices) to get a real ETA into my product at a commercial price....My dreams were on hold.

I should investigate the Miyota option. Well it all seemed to difficult. An unknown watchmaker using Japanese movements seemed again commercial suicide.

I turned the equation around; I will be honest, truthful and above all transparent. I will use Chinese movements that are Chinese movements, rather than Chinese movement masquerading as Swiss movements. That will be a recipe for certain failure.

I was lucky to discover that aside from the illegal movement copies the Chinese actually make movements under their own names, Shanghai, Sea-Gull, Hangzhou, Nanning to name a few. This new area was fascinating and exciting. But who were good and who were not.

It took close to 2 years of trying and trying to get someone from the Chinese movement companies to even acknowledge my emails and phone calls. But during that time I had decided that Sea-Gull would be my marque.

Sea-Gull is the Premier Watch and Movement maker in China. It has been supplying parts to the Swiss Watch Industry for many years and many Sea-Gull parts are legally manufactured into Swiss movements (see Valanvron, Claro Smeg CL888). I prefer not to buy these Swiss Movements. But rather stay true to Sea-Gull and offer a 100% Sea-Gull product made in China.

But they are Chinese and have the China Made stigma. However the top grade Sea-Gull movements are as good if not better than their Swiss counterparties. They offer significant price advantage – so I say Swiss beware. But a rose by any other name would still smell so sweet.

Still feeling the China Bashing, and knowing it will continue for some time, I needed a Swiss movement made in Switzerland from a well know company. And I wanted it to be better than the ETA equivalent.

Again, unless you are a reasonably big player even the other Swiss makers (Sellita, ISA, Technotime, and Soprod), will not talk to you either. I kept asking how do small makers get Swiss movements...the answer nearly always came up to the Grey Market or the Movement Brokers.... I am not big enough, I do not have the right connections and I live in the wrong part of the world to know the real answer. But I know there is something not quite right

Still I persisted and, I knocked on the Soprod door (again), presented my credentials, told them I was a small micro maker from country New South Wales, and waited. Eventually they agreed.

The Soprod A-10 offers significant advantages over its competitor the 2892-A2, hence it is my choice for the "Flag Ship" models.

The Sea-Gull ST-2100 series of movements will function as the base line, with the ST1800 Series providing additional refinements with a price advantage over the A-10. For the complications, I have always been a fan of the Venus 175 chronograph movement, so the obvious choice the ST-1900 series from Sea-Gull. Personally I am not a fan of the manual winding watches. So to my surprise, Sea-Gull have produced the ST-1940 an automatic version. So this will complete the line-up for now.

(I have been approached by the Nanning Watch Factory in China. Their movements are Miyota based and have additional pricing advantages; I do not have any immediate plans to extend the range lower).

So I have entered into an alliance with Sea-Gull of China and Soprod of Switzerland, and will be offering their movements. Unless we offer a special Vintage piece, we will NOT be offering ANY ETA based watches. This is not saying I am limiting the range to these companies; other options are still being investigated.

While movement choice, as both technically and price driven, it is more, an ethical choice.

Dan,

Another great post. I support your choice of movements given your options. Personally I have never been thrilled with ETA movements and especially the ETA 2824. I have been much happier with Japanese movements in general.

I am curious to know more about this.

"Nanning Watch Factory in China. Their movements are Miyota based "

How good are their movements? What movements do they have copies of? Do they plan to copy the newer 6R15, 6R20?

Thomas

Thank you.

In regard to the Miyota movements, I will have to plead ignorance. I know nothing about them. DG seems to be the dominant factory and NN (Nanning) seesm to have exactly the same movement as DG or example the DG3813 and DG2813 or the same as the NN2813 and NN3813,

Discussions with the chick at Nanning (she is in sales), but what I have gathered is the 3813 has a faster beat than the 2813 and this is also true for the DG..DG stand for Dixamont Guanghou. It seems that more people know the DG movements than the NN. But the sort of inferences I have gathered the NN is a better movement.

So any tutorial on the Miyota would be most welcomed.

Also if there is some demand for the NN movements, I would be more than happy to push the relationship further with the compnay in China.

Dan

Dan -

You might check one thing - unless you're logged in, you can't see the attached images. I'd guess that a lot of drop-by readers won't be logged in and thus miss part of the story. Might be possible to reconfigure something to allow it.

Amos,

Thank you for your comments and offer. It is much appreciated.

Sometime sharing ones’ disappointments or hardships brings relief in the form of new opportunities. I am sure we will do some good business.

I also agree, some Chinese movements are very good and some are not. I have always been of the opinion – credit where credit is due.

Looking back on the journey, would I have done it any differently – probably not. I have made some wonderful relationships and had some interesting tales to tell.

One thing I did not share: A number of years ago when I was less informed as now. I was very excited at the delivery of a fabric parcel that was held together with thread. I contained the movements I bought from the Indian Movement Broker – well how green was I???? My Thai friend had bought from the same man. So at least I was not alone.

It was a story I had to tell and I hope it has thrown some light on the road not to travel. What does not break us makes us stronger.

Dan